Church Facilities

  One of the biggest church design trends has been around for almost 40 years but has greatly evolved over recent years. We’re talking about multi-use facility design. We like to refer to the space as “multi-ministry” since it is a room in which you can do many different ministries. Why has this proven to

  Sunrock Distributed Generation, a commercial solar and clean energy development and management platform, and Watthub Renewables, a nationwide commercial solar installer, have announced the completion of a 280kW rooftop solar installation on the Palm Valley Church in Goodyear, Arizona. Financed by a solar service agreement designed to unlock the cost and environmental benefits of

  The search for the best flooring for churches has taken center stage, with an increasing emphasis on creating spaces that foster spirituality, community, and comfort. As churches continue to evolve, so do their flooring needs, requiring a keen understanding of the latest options and trends. Selecting the best flooring for churches is a significant

  Whether historic or newly constructed, churches serve as spiritual, social, and community hubs. Over time, the design of church interiors, especially gathering spaces, has evolved to accommodate the diverse needs of congregations. These spaces are dynamic environments that support flexible seating arrangements, functionality, comfort, and aesthetic variety. Whether a church is centuries old or

  Connecting over coffee in church is not new, but it has evolved considerably over the last few decades. In the late 20th century, churchgoers gathered in fellowship halls around gurgling percolator urns to sip grocery store coffee and swap family updates. As the country’s booming coffee industry has metamorphized since the turn of the

  The transition from summer to autumn is a pivotal time for churches. By understanding the unique challenges and opportunities of this season, you can implement strategies that not only address the immediate decline in attendance but also foster long-term growth and spiritual health. Reconnect Through Community-Building Events One of the most effective ways to

  Church events, projects, and activities play a significant role in glorifying God, fostering community strength, increasing spiritual growth, and expanding outreach within church congregations. Such events, projects, and activities include, but are not limited to, the following: community service projects, workshops, seminars, retreats, guest speakers, fairs, and youth experiences. Effective conflict resolution is crucial

  In today’s fast-paced world, it is essential for churches to find innovative ways to connect with their local community. By utilizing digital signage, you can extend the reach of your church’s communication efforts and make a lasting impact on a broader scale. Outdoor Digital Displays Attract Attention Outdoor digital displays offer a dynamic and

  A Green Team (or Environmental Stewardship Team or Creation Care Committee) is a core group of people in a congregation who are committed to raising awareness about the urgent need to protect God’s Creation and to work for environmental sustainability and responsibility. Green Teams develop sustainability in church life by increasing energy efficiency and

  The recent announcement of Disney’s staggering $60 billion investment in their theme parks and cruise lines, along with Universal Studios’ massive national and global expansion, underscores the immense value and enduring appeal of themed experiences. This trend isn’t just confined to the entertainment industry; it holds significant relevance for other spaces, including churches. Instead

  Churches are central to the community. Custom wayfinding signs are essential to make these spaces more welcoming and navigable. Compliance and Safety Ensuring safety and compliance is critical to implementing wayfinding signs in churches. Custom signs must adhere to local, state, and federal regulations, including the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requirements. This compliance

  By Jonathan Thomas Churches have long been locations of sanctuary and support in their communities. Recently, they’ve begun to adopt more versatile solutions to expand their roles, especially in providing emergency housing and aid during disasters. Enter the world of temporary modular walls – a groundbreaking solution that’s reshaping how churches offer humanitarian assistance.

  By Robert Kravitz A Riverside, California, church announced on January 4, 2024, that it is implementing several measures to lower its environmental impact. One of the main initiatives is building a 60-foot steel pergola next to the church, which will look like a giant patio cover. The steel structure will offer shade for the

  Whether your church was built recently or a few decades ago, it’s important to create and follow a maintenance plan that keeps your property in tip-top shape. Of course, this isn’t just about creating a more appealing environment for your members – it’s also about safety! Many older churches are prone to water damage,

  Your church property is one of your most important assets. It’s a place of worship, community center, and gathering for your congregation. Fortunately, keeping your church property in top shape doesn’t have to be complicated or time-consuming. By following a few simple steps, you can ensure that your church is always looking its best.

  Acoustic accordion partitions and accordion doors are versatile and functional solutions for dividing and separating spaces in a worship facility. Leading manufacturers in this industry offer a wide range of high-quality products that can be customized to suit various needs and aesthetics. The utilization of space and not using a threshold are just two

  Has the question of remodeling your church’s sanctuary come up repeatedly in leadership discussions? Even so, is there a lack of decision-making or consensus on next steps? A church sanctuary remodel can be a huge project both in scope and budget, so it’s not surprising that deliberation on the topic often lasts months, or

  To many, churches are the centralized hub for spirituality, worship, and community. For that reason, the design and arrangement of the interior play a crucial role in creating an atmosphere that supports the many ways that members engage with the church. One versatile and practical approach that has gained popularity in recent decades is

  In the last few years, the design of churches has become an influential trend that has had an enormous effect on worshippers. Increasingly, churches have employed this modern and updated decoration strategy to attract a range of audiences. Among the design and decoration styles, the settings of church flooring are also essential. That is

  While churches, mosques, and synagogues practice traditions dating back thousands of years, they are implementing cutting-edge technology to make worship more accessible and impactful for their congregations. Religious organizations are using digital signage software to display worship services, announcements, and even emergency alerts to their communities. Virtual Worship Services Many religious organizations began offering

  By Jake Douglas Hosting a special event at your church requires a few extra steps than Sunday services. As you start the planning process, include these steps to prepare the church facility for the event. Reserve the space. Each ministry department likely hosts a few events throughout the year. The last thing you want

  In a time where the need for resource-efficient solutions is paramount, the Interfaith Solar Campaign is leading the charge, harnessing the power of the sun and communities of faith to make a meaningful impact. Through their innovative solar initiative, they are not only spreading environmental awareness but also creating a brighter and more reliable

  Places of worship are so much more than buildings, as they function as the center of tremendous times of community and connection. Thinking of a place of worship as a facility may not feel quite right. Yet, in order for churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, and other places of worship to continue fulfilling the important

  Energy costs are one of the largest monthly expenses for churches. The lights must be on to reach people. And, since most people don’t find it appealing to attend a church that is boiling hot in the summer and freezing in the winter, properly functioning heating and air conditioning units and lights that are

  By Michael Wilson If we go back 50 or more years, we can honestly say that the professional cleaning industry did not change all that much. Sure, there were refinements and improvements with some cleaning machines, and new cleaning solutions were introduced, primarily to address issues with the old ones they were designed to

  By Dave Nolan Churches today must compete for the attention of young families. The good news is that you can stand out and attract and retain more families to your congregation by enhancing your church with child-friendly activities and décor that can turn your location into a destination. Creating a space that appeals to

  By Richard James Have you ever thought about your church sign condition sitting right outside your church? The church is much more than a beautiful place where people come to pray. It’s a community of spiritually free people connected through God. However, not everyone who practices goes to church, and this isn’t simply because

  Church buildings are not only some of our greatest cultural and institutional assets, but they are also some of the largest and most complex buildings in communities all across the country. Upkeep and energy saving improvements on these massive structures can be daunting and costly, yet there are some solutions that can be done

  Church signs are an important investment for any church. Not only do they provide a way to advertise and attract new members, but they also serve as a reminder of the values and beliefs of your congregation. Investing in custom signs can help create a sense of community and bring people together to celebrate

  Keeping your church clean is vital to your church congregation. You want to provide a safe and healthy experience for your parishioners and guests, so having a regular cleaning schedule and plan to tackle all the cleaning projects will help provide a continuously clean church for everyone. Just like with an office space or

  With low budgets, it’s hard to justify expensive purchases. And with important community and missionary work to do, spending tens of thousand dollars just to upgrade the aesthetics of the space seems unnecessary. But modular church partitions are built for multi-functional use, meaning you can use them in main halls, prayer rooms, Sunday schools,

  By Colby May Imagine with me for a minute. What if we could save energy at our homes and repurpose the savings by redirecting it to impact the most vulnerable, to provide food or water to those in need, or to reach those who have never heard of Jesus. Better yet, what if every

  By Bryan Christiansen Facility management is a term used to encompass all of the activities you have to perform to manage both people and the physical environment at your worship facility. Maintenance and related activities comprise 90% of church facility management. A well-structured and proactive maintenance schedule is vital. To effectively manage your church

  By Dr. Tom McElheny Your multipurpose room is key to serving ancillary church functions and ministries. With so many possible uses and different needs, organizing the multipurpose room can be a challenge. Here are some organization and design tips that will help you get the most out of your church hall or multipurpose room.

  By Alex E. Wendt Many churches built in the last 100 years are still standing strong today. But the inside of these churches may not have had the same luck. Peeling paint and worn-out decor are signs that it’s time to spruce up the inside of a church. Because renovating churches involves specific processes,

  By Andrew Crawford Places of worship serve not only as the focal gathering point for the congregation to worship, but also double as community centers, food banks, emergency shelters, and so much more when needed. Some busier places of worship in larger towns are open seven days a week, with a wide array of

  You may think modular construction is only useful for offices and classrooms, but that’s not the case. Many houses of worship are turning to modular construction to satisfy their needs while staying under budget. Like all modular buildings, these customizable spaces are the perfect way to accommodate growth and change quickly and easily. Let’s

  Throughout the country, churches of all sizes and denominations often experience a bump in fall church attendance. Congregations inexorably benefit from people wanting to get back into the rhythm of “normal” life after the erratic pace of summertime. Much of the fall church attendance increase is regulars being regular again, to be sure. However,

  By Ashley Kim Churches are the main source of community for many people. As such, it is essential for churches to curate in-person experiences that make churchgoers feel welcome and connected. A positive experience means newcomers are likelier to stick around, and regular congregants will feel like they’re part of the community. Posters, bulletin

  Outsourcing, strategies, and technology innovations hold immense potential for congregations seeking to improve productivity in church facilities management. The health of church facilities and their congregation has become more important than ever. For large congregational and church facilities especially, making the decision to outsource some or all facilities management functions is a monumental consideration.

  By Michael Wilson If you look closely, you’ll see a curtain coming down in a theater near you. It’s closing on the last performance of the play Hygiene Theater. Most of us, including church administrators, know about this show. Many of us have even seen it. In Hygiene Theater, all of the characters are cleaning professionals,

  Depending where you live, you can find churches of all denominations on almost every corner. The church buildings of today aren’t always the quintessential chapel with a steeple anymore, either. From worship centers in old movie theaters to churches setting up shop in former factories, how can you ensure visitors know where they can

  By Addie Sorbo A big part of a successful children’s ministry program is creating fun, inviting spaces that will appeal to kids and make them excited to go to church. Whether you’re starting from scratch or looking for a refresh for your church’s children’s area, choosing and implementing relevant themed spaces can be a

  The prevalent perception of many religious intuitions is that they are not accepting of new technologies. This is one of the premier reasons why houses of worship are struggling to connect with Gen Z and younger people. Gen Z understands the language of technology, and for any place to connect with them, it has

  Church cleaning has never been more important. After all, these confined spaces can be filled with hundreds of people singing, praying, and breathing the same air. Alongside other preventative measures, thorough cleaning is an essential way for religious leaders to eradicate germs from communal areas and keep everybody safe in the process. And hiring

  Make your property safety and maintenance plans more effective with clear communication. Property claims are the most common ones we see, but a few proactive conversations and preparation can go a long way toward keeping your sanctuary as safe as possible. Building stronger communication with your team in the following two areas can help

  By Katie Albrecht As a church leader, there’s always a variety of factors to consider when it comes to your facility. Regardless of the size or style of your space, facility managers likely face something new every day. For this reason, there are several lines of portable partitions to help churches and other facilities

  By Michael Wilson Historically very slow-changing, the professional cleaning industry is now changing – and advancing, I might add – about as fast as most other industries. Several new products were introduced due to the pandemic, but the changes and advancements in technology we will be discussing here were evolving long before the coronavirus

  Hermitage Hills Baptist is a church based in Nashville, Tennessee. For the last three years, Mike Brown, the facility manager, has been serving the church and working to improve the campus. We interviewed Brown about his experience working with PCE. How did the church first hear about Power of Clean Energy? When I started

  Multipurpose space has long been a buzzword for church leadership. But, as the needs of modern congregations grow and expand, incorporating multipurpose space effectively requires creativity and innovation. When leveraged correctly, multipurpose space can foster community, increase the efficiency of a church building, and promote cost savings. Here are a few examples of unique

  “Fulfilling God’s mission for His Kingdom’s sake starts with the recognition that the place where we are standing is Holy ground.” –Rich Elliott (Facility Director at First UMC Marietta) Did you know that churches in the U.S. spend nearly $10 billion on energy and maintenance of their facilities? Did you know that, according to

  By Dan Reiland It’s obvious that attendance in physical buildings has dramatically declined over the past year, and with so many still disconnected from true engagement, what’s the best way to go forward? Let’s start with something encouraging…people are coming back! Even some who have been away for a year! Let me establish an

  It’s clear that going forward, churches won’t be able to accurately measure the growth and size of their church simply by counting the number of seats filled during Sunday service. Since understanding these trends will be critical for ministry leaders to understand moving forward, we recently conducted research with some of our client churches

  By Andrew Moffett                                                                                No matter what is happening in the world, we are creatures who crave and desire in-person interactions. That simple fact leads to the non-negotiable desire to host and attend worship services, celebrations, weddings, and any other purposeful event that brings congregations together. There is a great deal of proactive planning that

  By Nancy Sleeth “Am I supposed to say anything?” I whispered to the woman who had invited us to the meeting. “That’s why you’re here!” she responded. Yes, it was a setup—in the best sense. My husband Matthew and I had been asked to lead a retreat on stewardship of God’s creation. The church

  While some churches returned to in-person services relatively quickly during the pandemic, there are many more who still haven’t met in the same building since March 2020. If you haven’t navigated reopening your doors yet (or maybe even if you have), here’s a list of things you’ll need to consider before you make the

  Many types of gatherings are important for civic and economic well-being, and religious worship has a particularly profound significance to communities and individuals. Restrictions are easing, and many places of worship are beginning to plan for a full reopening. As you work through your expanded reopening plans, your cleaning and disinfecting protocols will be

  By Ashley Birkeland It’s been over a year since my family and I attempted to attend our first virtual service. With three very active children under eight years of age, I was cautiously optimistic that I could still have a similar experience while in the comfort of my own home. Pajamas – check! Perfectly

  It feels like it has been forever since congregations have been able to gather together for worship and provide their communities support and fellowship. During the pandemic, some churches found workarounds by live-streaming services or providing “drive-in” options. Others restricted capacity, and many churches had to shut down altogether. With hope in sight for

  By Josh Gregoire Welcome to the world of “phygital” church—the blending of the physical and digital to maximize how churches connect with people and help them draw closer to God and others. My colleague, Rob Gordon, and I met on Facebook Live for a conversation about phygital church. Rob and others on our design

  Operable partitions transform interior space requirements to meet current and future demands. They increase revenue potential by allowing a room size to be tailored to each event. This flexibility means that a large meeting room can be transformed into several small rooms with minimal set-up time, thus maximizing space utilization. Partitions provide sound control

  Other than educational facilities, the religious/worship vertical market has been affected the most by the pandemic. But religious facilities, especially existing, are faced with very unique space division issues. The premise of a worship facility is based on “congregating,” to meet together as a unified body to worship and praise. But how do you

  By Tim Cool Though some of us are not entering into a church building yet, I trust many people have “entered His gates” emotionally, spiritually or even virtually. But what about the “re-entering” of the physical gates? It is no surprise COVID-19 has flipped our worlds completely upside down. In some way, shape, or

  By Derek DeGroot As COVID-19 restrictions ease in various states across the country and congregations start to regather in their church facilities, many churches are facing a new realization: their building isn’t designed with spaces to accommodate groups of 10 to 50, the range for church gathering sizes in the initial reopening phase for

  By Mark Rustad As America works to rebound off the Coronavirus and open our lives back up, questions remain as to the safety and health of all commercial spaces. American ingenuity has begun to kick in, as these spaces become redefined and re-purposed for use. Case in point would be a larger gymnasium space

  The current pandemic has facilities managers everywhere rethinking business as usual. One dirty little secret that’s been exposed? Before COVID-19, many of us weren’t giving our floors nearly enough attention. As Derryl Yeager, founder and artistic director of Odyssey Dance Theatre in Draper, Utah, says, “A lot of times, the floor wouldn’t be deep-cleaned

                                                                                                       By Robert F. Goodfellow

  By Dr. Tom McElheny Historically, church services have been held in a dedicated worship facility. In the 21st century, anything can be a worship facility. From converted gyms to old retail spaces, many congregations are meeting in non-traditional spaces. The cost for renting or buying these is often cheaper than a traditional church building,

  By Katie Albrecht Since the world is at a challenging time with sickness, job loss, and grief running rampant, churches are needed more than ever. Many people look to their local church as a form of solace and community, and without it, they can suffer greatly. Although video streams of Sunday Mass and prayer

  By Marc Ferguson As this is being written, we are witnessing an alarming increase in COVID cases around the United States. Some states are on the verge of shutting down once again, while others are looking to see if they can take incremental steps to help bring the case numbers down. As a faithful

  The role of the modern church is evolving with places of worship expanding their reach and impact by serving as gathering places outside of the traditional Sunday morning service. In fact, the new role of the church building expands far beyond the classical context of religion. When the time comes, many churches will once

  By Aaron Schafer In an effort to be good financial stewards during the COVID-19 crisis, many churches have turned to an unlikely ally: energy efficiency. Across the country, churches are grappling with a new reality as a result of COVID-19. While many churches have begun to transition back to in-person gatherings, there are still

  By Tim Cool As with the many phases of state and federal reopening, our team has been developing the phases for reopening. We have developed 4 phases that we think every church should consider. Before we dive into the 4 phases, let me reiterate that there is no crystal ball or magic wand. No

  Today, many churches are competing with local markets for visibility and relevance. As we all know, the landscape in modern marketing is more competitive than ever. So, the question becomes, “What can a church do to compete in this competitive landscape while not breaking the bank?” Traditionally, LED signs were extremely expensive marketing tools

  By William E. Pike It’s Friday night. You and your family have tickets to see the latest blockbuster movie at 7:30. First, you need to grab a bite to eat. After driving home, changing clothes, and wrangling the kids into the car, you head to a family-friendly restaurant on the edge of the mall

  By Joe McCullough Since the turn of the 21st century, churches across the world have embraced the idea of theming children and youth spaces to attract new visitors and foster community through intentional, purpose-driven design that teaches Biblical truths in a fun, visually rich environment. As facilities grow in size and popularity, it is

  When you think of digital LED signs, what’s the first thing that comes to mind? Car dealerships? Bowling alleys? Restaurants? Many of these businesses have discovered the benefit of using an LED sign to advertise their products and services, but LED signs can be just as important for churches looking to increase visibility and

  By Terry Schawe To better understand the impact a pandemic can have on church facilities, it might be a good idea to see what happened during the last pandemic back in 1918. On March 4, 1918, a cook at an army training center in Kansas was coughing and complained of headaches. Initially, he thought

  Every year, we hear a lot of discussion about new trends and changes in church ministry. Ideas such as how do we reach the next generation, should we restore traditions, and what worship style works best for our congregation are often at the forefront of these conversations.   As a result of these potential

  By Stephen P. Ashkin To answer this question, let’s look at the following case study. It should help church administrators better understand the reasons they should embrace sustainability. It involves one of the largest family-operated distribution company in the Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware area. Recently, it became involved with a program sponsored by

  By John Stein As malls empty out, these retail spaces are being repurposed, and churches are taking advantage. Worship spaces are a common reuse for these abandoned stores, gyms and restaurants. It’s almost commonplace now to see faith communities worshiping in repurposed gyms, shoe or sporting goods stores, even movie theaters. One clear consequence

  By Doug Foltz Most multi-site churches begin with the dream by a visionary leader. Sitting with these leaders and hearing the dream is an energizing experience. I remember a couple of years ago sitting with Danny Schaffner, lead pastor of First Christian Church in Champaign, Illinois. His dream was big. The church had grown

  Flooring will be one of the most important finishes in your new church building. Modern manufacturing processes have produced some great new options, but that doesn’t mean you should pass by one of the most traditional and (especially recently) versatile flooring options: carpet. Advantages of Carpet Put simply, carpet is quieter and more affordable

  Modular worship buildings & religious facilities are perfect for churches, synagogues, temples and mosques to use as administrative and training space. With your growing attendance, modular buildings are a perfect solution for additional classrooms and office space. When your congregation needs additional flexible space quickly, permanent or temporary modular church buildings can bring you

This article originally appeared in the January 2005 issue. By Ken Collins The Rev. Kenneth W. Collins is the pastor of Garfield Memorial Christian Church in McLean, Va. You can visit him on the Internet at www.kencollins.com.  Vestment is the term for special clothing worn by the people who conduct a worship service. Vestments have

By William Gagnon Imagine it like a prize fight: paper towels vs. hand dryers for the high-speed, energy-efficient, cost-effective, hygienic hand-drying championship of the world. The fact is, when it comes to an eventual decision about the way to dry hands after washing, it’s not much of a contest. Across the globe, facilities of every

In the last few decades, church stage design has become an influential trend that can have an enormous effect on entire congregations. Increasingly, churches that employ this modern and updated decorative strategy attract a wide audience, all worshipping together in a contemporary setting. As multi-sensory worship experiences and creative sermons become more and more popular,

Incorporating themed environments and wall murals continue to be popular for kid’s church rooms. They’re great ways to hold a child’s attention, perfect tools for teaching stories and concepts, and they almost always guarantee a child will come back to the church for multiple, long-term attendance. It’s no wonder children’s ministries continue to use theming

Church signs can be a very powerful marketing tool, and, in fact, many church leaders have noticed an increase in attendance after putting up their signs. Looking for ways to improve your marketing with signage? Wondering how to use your church sign as a marketing tool? For a bit of inspiration, check out these ideas:

  This article originally appeared in the February 2007 issue. By David England David England is the national sales manager for Campbellsville Industries, Inc., www.cvilleindustries.com. He has been assisting churches and church architects for 27 years in the design, anchoring and installation of church steeples. We frequently receive e-mail messages and letters from around the

By Terry Fontaine Operable partitions, also commonly known as airwalls, are versatile, movable wall systems that are produced by several manufacturers. While they’re known as walls and partitions, they’re actually entire systems that have a variety of components and parts. Across the variety of manufacturers and styles, there can be a massive amount of difference

By Steve Cohen The key to creating a facility that adds value beyond Sunday lies in the design of public space—the areas where people meet, eat, learn and relax. In the modern congregation, there are many types of public space, including lobbies, social halls, recreation rooms, youth lounges, coffee shops and corner nooks. While each

By Michael Wilson According to an August 2017 study by Forrester, a research organization that conducts surveys into business trends and directions, today’s business buyers are increasingly self-directed. By this, they mean that business-to-business (B2B) purchasers such as church administrators making buying decisions for their churches, increasingly rely solely on their own judgment. These buyers

  This article originally appeared in the November 2011 issue. By Eric MacInerney, AIA Eric MacInerney is managing partner with Heimsath Architects, www.heimsath.com. Cafetorium. Sanctatorium. Sanctunasium. Family Life Center. Multipurpose spaces of all types are very common elements in church design. And, why not? They make great first-phase buildings, they allow you to fundraise from

By Julie Wenckowski Like you, I’ve participated in plenty of church planning meetings where we’ve asked ourselves: Where can we get more space for the youth group? How can we better serve our community? What is the best location to store the worship equipment when not in use? Questions like these prompted our leaders to

By Matt Morrison There are several types of floors that church properties can select from for their nurseries. Many select carpet. It helps “quiet” a nursery room. Plus, we now know that carpet absorbs airborne pollutants, helping to prevent them from being inhaled, which helps protect health. Carpet also helps prevent slip and fall accidents from occurring and is softer under

Every industry has its trends, and churches are no exception. As 2018 has gotten well underway, there are a few trends we’re seeing in church signs across the country If you’re trying to keep your church’s signage relevant during the upcoming warm months when you’ll have plenty of passersby paying attention to what you have

Those once gleaming benches and bright colored walls of your sanctuary now look pretty dingy. You know that the whole vibe of the space is several years out of date, too. It might be hard to justify the update when it comes to looking at your budget, especially if it seems to be working just

For a traveling ministry, effective use of time, space, and physical labor are of utmost importance when trying to bring their message to as many people as possible in a given time period. A mobile stage provides a safe, durable, reliable, and efficient venue for this purpose. Apex Stages is a leading manufacturer of mobile

By Neal Peters “God entrusted these facilities to you. They are His and He expects us to be diligent.” –Tim Cool, The WHY behind the WHAT: Church Facility Management Churches are so much more than buildings. They are places of worship, community, and connection. They have great meaning beyond simply floors, walls, and windows. That’s